Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Jargo » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:51 pm

I watched the Superfatman trailer and wondered what the fuck they were trying to convey. How photogenic Cavill is, or how gimpy Affleck looks. At the point where the guards bow before Cavill I figured it was all just self-indulgent shit and gave up.

That's a lie actually. I watched the whole trailer. I was just being dramatic to make a point. It looks like shit though. Frankly I think I'll watch The Man From U.N.C.L.E. instead. Just as much Cavill photogenicality (yes, I just made up a word) and action sequences, without the destruction of yet another fucking city trope. Plus TMFU looks like it has smart dialogue and class. It's also beautifully shot and doesn't dwell on dystopian grubbiness or out and out pessimism. Plus, Armie Hammer looks and sounds absolutely awesome as Illya Kuryakin.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Diabolical » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:18 pm

I'm looking forward to Batman v Superman: Trial of the Century strictly for their take on The Dark Knight Rises.


Suicide Squad on the other had looks like dogshit.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby anarky » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:49 pm

Suicide Squad does look a trillion times better than the still photos. Not good, but those photos were horrible.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Diabolical » Tue Jul 14, 2015 12:27 am

I'm REALLY not digging Leto's Joker. Maybe it'll be better than the pics/trailer, but right now he looks like shit.

Harley seems better in the trailer. Still not the Harley I wanted, but damn, Margot Robbie is hot.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby anarky » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:17 pm

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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby anarky » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:23 pm

I was re-re-re-re-re-re-watching Batman and something jumped out at me.

" I was a kid when I killed your parents. I mean, I say 'I made you,' you gotta say 'you made me.' I mean, how childish can you get?"

Everyone's always considered it to be a huge plot hole, or just the Joker talking out of his ass. But on this viewing, it hit me that the Joker DOES know exactly who he's dealing with. The evidence is very subtle, but it's definitely there.

(Apologies if you're on FB; this is going to be a slightly more cohesive version of my post there.)

Start at the scene of the crime. Jack is definitely not drunk or stoned when he kills Thomas and Martha. He's as calm and calculating as ever. He knows what the hell he's doing, in other words. If this is a robbery that went bad, he'll know who he killed the next day when the lead story across all the news will be the murder of the Waynes. However, given that we know he'll rise to become the second-in-command of Gotham under Grissom, and he's dressed quite well, I think it's more likely that (for reasons completely unaddressed in the movie, but possibly tying to that completely awful early draft Burton wrote that was summarized in Wizard ages ago) Jack is the trigger man in a mob hit on the Waynes. Why, we don't know. But that makes it even more likely that he knows exactly who he gunned down. (Why'd he leave Bruce alive? Most likely a witness, who's too young to think, "Dude was wearing some nice duds for a mugger, and didn't actually take anything.")

At this point, the Waynes are probably a non-entity for Jack for ages. He doesn't care that he killed them; they're just two among many. He doesn't follow Bruce in the press, because why would he?

Then Grissom sends Jack to that fateful encounter at Axis Chemicals where he's supposed to be brought in by Jek Porkins. But Gordon and Batman both show up. One bit of the encounter should stand out: Jack is one of the very few people to get a good look at Batman's face, and Batman smiles at him. Batman never smiles. But he does. We're meant to notice it.

So Jack becomes the Joker. No doubt the face of the man responsible for his transformation is burned into his memory.

One man in the photographs Bob takes stands out to the Joker, because he makes a point to ask. It's also the guy who acts as if he wants to stop the spree of violence on the steps of the courthouse. Joker has clearly noticed him, and Bob informs him it's Bruce Wayne. At this point, I don't think he's figured anything out, but he knows this is the son of the couple he killed.

Joker clearly follows newspapers closely, and probably pays a bit more attention to Bruce Wayne. It might be at this point, or it might be a bit later, but, chances are, he recognizes in one photo the sly grin of the Batman.

Batman clearly takes an interest in Vicki Vale, rescuing her at the museum. At this encounter, Joker, who is batshit insane but still clearly intelligent, comments aloud about Batman's "wonderful toys." He no doubt recognizes the expense required. And, soon after, he'll know that Batman figured out his chemical concoctions in personal care items, and has access to some pretty damned advanced chemical equipment. He'll no doubt know that Bruce Wayne, as head of Wayne Enterprises, would fill both requirements.

Joker confronts Vicki at her apartment a bit later. Here's where, if he hasn't already, he connects the dots. Bruce Wayne is there. He now knows that both Bruce and Batman have taken an interest in Vicki. Bruce confronts Joker, telling him that he knows that he's really Jack Napier, then makes a kind of half-assed attempt to fight him. Joker shoots him and leaves. Clearly, Bruce was trying to distract him away from Vicki. Perhaps it worked. More likely, Joker is smart enough to figure out right there that Bruce Wayne is Batman, or at least he gets confirmation. Either way, he'll be checking the news the next day for news of Bruce's death and, when it doesn't come, he'll know that he prepared himself to get shot.

Why doesn't Joker make a big deal about this? Simple. He doesn't need to. Perhaps his goading Batman to take off the mask on TV is, in part, because he knows Bruce can't do that. But, as completely insane as he is, this version of Joker remains in control. He won't do anything with this knowledge until it benefits him...
...like when Batman is beating the shit out of him on top of a church and confirms his suspicions.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby anarky » Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:38 pm

Something else I just thought of: To actually state that he always says "You ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?," he seems to hardly ever actually do that. I'd have to watch again, but does Joker actually say that at any other point? (I'm referring only to Joker, not Jack Napier, who, in the mind of the Joker, is dead.)

I think he says that (and explains it) to Bruce in Vicki's apartment because he knows who he's dealing with, knows that he killed his parents, and knows that admitting that such a bizarre phrase is kind of his signature is basically a confession to Bruce. Either he wants Batman to know he killed his parents for some reason, or he wants to gauge his reaction to hearing the phrase.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Ran » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:32 pm

Other than the two times you mentioned, I don't remember the Joker saying the line. Maybe he only does it when he shoots someone. The only other person he shoots is Bob, and that seems more like a spur of the moment thing.

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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Tom Foolery » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:10 am

I'm trying really hard not to get excited about this, but goddamn it's cool to see live action Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman in the same film.

Lex Luthor is annoying as fuck though.


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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby jjreason » Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:08 am

Good trailer. I'll likely go with Tom to see it, knowing full well I will wind up thinking I should have waited for Netflix. Snyder Superman was gloomy, but I didn't find it bad.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby anarky » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:17 pm

Why would I pay to see the movie? I think I just did.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Tom Foolery » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:33 pm

I'm intrigued by the fan theory that Jared Leto's Joker is Robin/Jason Todd because that defaced statue keeps popping up in the trailers. That kind of twist would be HUGE for the DCMU mythology.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby anarky » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:37 pm

That could lead to a wealth of potential stories.

However, I don't think a film geared toward a wider audience is the best place to explore that, if true.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Tom Foolery » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:22 pm

I don't think it will be addressed in this film perse. But setting it up in this film for the Suicide Squad movie or the Affleck directed Batman is clever. If it's true.
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Re: Batman Begins: The best superhero film of all time

Postby Tom Foolery » Wed Jan 20, 2016 4:58 am

I think it's cheating to use Queen, because Queen makes everything more awesome.
However, with that caveat, I'm looking forward to this movie. Way more than BvsS.

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